🎤 Behavioral Interview with Melina Palmer

Interview with Melina Palmer, Founder & CEO at The Brainy Business.

1. Tell us about you and your experience.

My undergraduate degree is in business administration, marketing. Out of college I got a job at an advertising agency and was there for a bit before starting a consultancy for credit union marketing. After a few years of running that business with my co-founder, I decided to work inside an organization and ran the marketing department for a credit union for 6 years before I found behavioral economics.

I have always enjoyed understanding people and experience journeys, both as customers and within organizations. Even before I found behavioral economics as a field, I was intuitively using a lot of the concepts, which is why it was so amazing when I found the field and had a name for so many of the things I was already doing with my teams and in my roles.

2. How did your interest in Behavioral Science begin?

Back in my undergrad, there was one section of a book in one of my classes that introduced the idea of buying psychology. It discussed why people do the things they do and buy the things they buy, and I was absolutely hooked the moment I read about it. I hadn’t really thought about additional schooling at that point, but in that moment I decided that I wanted to go back to get a master’s degree in it once my bachelor’s was done.

Well, after graduation I spent the better part of ten years calling different universities around the country who told me that wasn’t a program and that they didn’t have anything for me. So, I started my marketing career and really loved the work I was doing, but this idea was always in the back of my mind.

About a decade into my career, I was part of a design thinking and innovation fellowship (it was a 2-year program). While in that program we did these 6-month sprints and were introduced to new ideas from all sorts of industries. One of those involved a team from the Center for Advanced Hindsight at Duke University (Dan Ariely’s team) who came in and were explaining their research. I quickly realized this was what I had spent a decade searching for! They told me the field was called behavioral economics, I found myself a master’s program, and the rest is history.

3. How did you come up with the idea of starting The Brainy Business Podcast?

I knew I was pretty early into the field since I had such a hard time finding it for 10 years, but during my schooling I realized that almost no one was talking about how to apply this stuff into work. The connection was so clear to me, and I found it puzzling that there was so little published on the topic in any medium.

At this point, it was 2018 and I was doing consulting full time, and incorporating behavioral economics into the work I was doing. I met someone who had a very successful podcast and was talking with her about the trajectory for my business, explaining the work I did and the field of behavioral science. She said to me, “I never, ever tell anyone to start with a podcast, but you need to do this yesterday.”

So, I took that advice, researched how to start a podcast, rebranded my company, and launched The Brainy Business about 6 weeks later with its first three episodes in July of 2018.

I figured it would just be a warm lead generator for me, and a way to explain to my existing prospects what behavioral science was and why it tied in with marketing. It did that, but because it was also the only podcast of its kind at that time, one of the first in the market when behavioral economics started to see a boom of interest, I lucked out and it started being found by people around the world.

We now have over 1.4 million downloads from more than 170 countries. The podcast has led to me teaching via Texas A&M, three books, a TEDx talk, global clients and keynotes, and more. It has been an amazing journey to be sure!

4. Tell us more about your newest book “The Truth about Pricing: How to Apply Behavioral Economics So Customers Buy”.

Thanks for asking! I have come to learn over the years that people around the world universally hate pricing. It is stressful and can lead to a lot of overwhelm for everyone from entrepreneurs to global corporations. The unfortunate thing is, that a lack of confidence around pricing is one of the main things that makes it so people don’t feel comfortable buying from you, and that can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don’t want that for companies!

As I share in the first few pages of the book, the truth is that whether or not someone chooses to buy from you has very little to do with the number on a price tag. All the things that come before the price matter more than the price itself. All that stuff that happens is where psychology comes in – that’s behavioral economics. The Truth About Pricing is essentially a step-by-step guide that shows people how to think about all the stuff (psychology) that happens before the price is shared so they can sell more confidently and close more sales.

5. How can we carry out ethical interventions when applying Behavioral Economics into pricing?

The thing I always tell people is, whether you think about it or not, the way you present information is influencing the decision someone makes. If you aren’t thoughtful about it, you are potentially nudging someone toward a choice that isn’t good for them – which could mean buying the wrong product, or feeling the cognitive stress of not being able to easily choose to buy from you, or choosing a competitor that isn’t a good fit because they had a stronger pitch. In that way, isn’t it better to be thoughtful about human decision making so it is easier for people to choose you?

The way I tell people to apply behavioral economics is to invest in understanding the person they are selling to. If you understand what they care about, what their problems are, and how your product or service is a solution to those problems, you can then price and pitch appropriately to help them make a decision. That is a win in my book!

My mom used to tell me to never say anything I wouldn’t want on the front page of the New York Times (or whatever big newspaper or news site would be relevant to you now). In that same way, be sure that you are honest in anything you put out in the world. And, if you ever had to explain why you did something and it was going to show up as a headline on a big news site…if you would feel good about that, then I think you are on the right track.

All standard ethics practices apply in behavioral science just like they would in any other area of life and business.

6. What would be your advice for students or specialists who are beginning to discover Behavioral Science? How can they learn more about the discipline?

The first advice I always give is to know that this field is still incredibly new, and there is nothing but opportunity. Because it is looking at human behavior and decision making, even if you don’t see a lot of roles in your area of interest yet, or in the industry you want to work in, it is only a matter of time and there is no reason you can’t be first!

If you have an interest, invest in it, because this is a field on the rise. In 2019 Bloomberg listed behavioral scientist as the number one job of this decade (even before data analyst). There is room and opportunity, and those who show interest and passion will have an edge. Formal programs are popping up more and more, so if you can invest in education, whether it is a virtual certificate like what I teach in via Texas A&M University, a master’s or PHd, if you have the means, that will become a must very soon. So, I say do it.

If you are interested in looking for programs and more about what is happening in the field, I recommend BehavioralEconomics.com, as they have a lot of great resources including programs around the world. Of course, I recommend The Brainy Business podcast to learn more about various foundational concepts and what researchers and practitioners are doing globally (there are more than 450 episodes now to choose from!). I also like Habit Weekly, encourage research on Google Scholar, and would recommend you follow different people on LinkedIn and join any communities you can to be part of the conversation.

Business is a long game. Networking and showing interest early will serve you well when you start looking for jobs.

Thank you so much Melina for answering the questions! I hope readers can learn from your experience and suggestions 😄

Silvia Cottone

Behavioral Science Consultant & Worldwide Speaker

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This interview is part of the "Behavioral Interviews" series. It is fully written and edited by the guest. You can read more interviews with behavioral science experts here.